Fampidirana
ikaretsaka | 24 Oktobra, 2007 17:15
HO an'ilay namako izay,
Izaho dia anisan'ireo mino ihany koa fa ny Fiangonana Katolika no hany fiangonana marina naorin'i Kristy
Haiko... Raha ohatra hoe Kristianina amin'ny fiangonana hafa ianao (indrindra raha prôpestà) dia haiko ny mety hoeritreretinao:
"Eee voa mafy aho. Mampalahelo fa tsy nohazavain'ny fianarana Soratra Masina aho, tsy mahafantatra izany "fahalalahana" iainan'ny kristianina hafa, raha mba nianatra Soratra masina sy nianatra baiboly izao aho dia tena tsy hisaina ohatran'izany mihitsy, fa mety ho lasa protestà ohatranay".
Inoako fa mety ho izany tokoa ny ao an-tsainao, raha mijery ahy ianao krtistianina finoana ka tsy miraika amin'izany fiteniko izany, dia hafa indray iny. Ie, Henonao ny hoe "misy zavatra hafahafa" mitranga ao amin'ny katolika, ary ekeko koa fa betsaka ny tantara henonao momban'ny Fiangonana katolika, hoe "authoritative" e sns... sy izay mety ho fieritreretanao any! Mino aho fa namaky ireo tantara sy filaza ireo ianao, ary raha tsy taitra amin'ny zavatra lazaiko ianao dia dia ataoko hoe mba momba ahy ihany.
Alohan'ny hitsaratsaranao ahy be fahatany anefa, dia mba misy zavatra momban 'ny tantaram-piainako mba tiako holazaiko aminao. Zavatra inoako fa mety hahagaga anao, mety hanindrona anao, fa milaza aminao aho ny mba hamakianao ny zavatra hambarako, fa nihatra tamiko ilay izy ary tena marina, ka mba tiako lazaina amin
Ny Kônfesiko |
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Fitarihana ve (Divine Providence)?
ikaretsaka | 23 Oktobra, 2007 17:51
Asa na fitarian'ny Fanahy masina na kisendrasendra, fa aleoko atao fotsiny hoe "divine providence"
Nisy fotoana nahatonga ahy ho "mpianatra" baiboly. Ny marimarina kokoa aza dia nisy fotoana aho nino fa ny Baiboly "ihany" no tokony arahina sy "lalanan'ny finoana kristianina". Asa anefa, mety ho vokatr'io "Divine providence" io no nahatonga ahy hoe vao mainka aho nianatra baiboly, sy nanao azy "lalanan'ny fiainako",
dia teo koa no nahatsapako fa misy zavatra banga sy tsy ampy eo amin'ny tontolom-pinoako! ary tsapaka fa ilaina fenoina raha te ahita fiadanana ny fanahiko. Teo amin'io fahatsapana io "foana sy tsy ampy io" no nahatonga ahy nanao "comparative religion", nijereko ireo finoana "kristianina rehetra". Dia asa koa fa "Divine Providence" ihany no nahitako sy nanapahako fa ny finoana katolika no finoana hahafeno io banga sy tsy ampy io, sy hanome ahy io fiadanam-panahy izay notadiaviko fatratra io
"tsssssleeee, inona koa izany?, Imagination an la izany, Zany ve de mba possible".... mety ho iznay indray no horesahinao sy mety ho fihevitrao eto.
Dia teneniko indray ianao hoe tsy maninona fa andao hotohizana ihany, sao mety hiova io opinion anao io! asa? na mety ho hafa ny hijerenao azy rehefa avy eo. Marina fa mety tsy hiray ary mety tsy hanaiky ny fanazavako ianao. fa mino aho fa ho hitanao, fa zavatra tsy imagination-ko irery izany
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Eny ary
ikaretsaka | 23 Oktobra, 2007 17:17
Ireo tantara lazainao sy henonao momban'ny katolika ireo hoe tsy araka ny Soratra Masina sns.. dia tsy mitombina, teo am-pitadiavana sy fianarana ny Soratra Masina indrindra aho no tapa-kevitra fa , mila manao Katolika.
Ie, tena izany! Nohon'y fianarako Soratra masina, nohon'izao ilay hoe nasaina nalala tsaina "handalina" io Teny io, no nahitako hoe ireo fijery nafahana ahy momban'ny katolika dia betsaka ny tsy mitombina, ary inoako fa ny katolika koa, dia mitovy fijery amiko momba izany.
Ie: na dia vita batemy katolika aza aho, lehibe sy nobeazina tao amin'ny sekoly katolika, dia niaina teo amina tontolo Protestanta, Pasitera malaza ny rahalahin'i Dadabeanay avy any @ raiko,(Ratovonarivo), fa ny reniko no Katolika (dia lasa katolika koa i dada elaela taty aoriana ) . Vokany dia nisy fotoana aho "nandray 2" ny finoako ary karazan'ny "nisavily vol" teny foana nandritry ny 15 taona voalohany niainako. Niampy an'izay koa, dia nony lehibebe aho dia nisy fotoana aho niaraka tamin'olona Loteranina mafana fo be , zanaka mpiandry sy tena nafana fo tamin'izany finoana izany. na iznay aza dia nandray 2 foana satria sady "mankany no mankaty"! dia teo aho no nanomboka "namaky baiboly" misimisy kokoa sy nandray anjara tamin'ny activity izan-karazany nataony. Nisara dalana moa izahay taty aoriana na niaraka ela aza (tsy haiko na lahatra na anjara), vokatr'ilay voatery nisara toerana foana nohon'ny asa aman-draharaha.
Ie: nandritry ny tapany voalohany tamin'ny fiainako dia nandray 2 teny foana ny finoako. Eny, nirona bebe kokoa tany @ protestantism aza!
Lazaiko tsy am-pisalasalana koa, (inona moa ny antony hisalasalako) fa ny firaisako sy ny fiainana naha lehibe ahy tao amin'ny protestanta, dia nitondra voka-tsoa o ahy ihany, nahalala an'i Jesoa (jesosy) aho tao, tao no anisan'ny nahalalako hoe zanak'Atra, tonga tety an-tany sy nofantsihina noho ny heloka, ary ny finoana azy no mitondra any @ fiainana mandrakizay sns sns.
Tao koa no nahalalako sy nanekeko hoe "Raiki-tsoratra misy ny tenin'Andriamanitra ny Baiboly"
Lasa manaratsy be fahatany aho, ary fantatro fa tsy mety ny hataoko, raha milaza fa tsy nanovo soa tao @ Protestantism aho. ary marina ilay fiteny hoe "aza manaratsy ny nanao soa ho anao", nisy fotoana mamy tao, ary misy zavatra tsy adinoko betsaka.
Fa na izany na tsy izany. dia tsapako fa mila misafidy sy miova ao, ary tao anaty "conscience-ko" dia tsapako hoe mila manao katolika aho
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Purgatory
ikaretsaka | 07 Septambra, 2007 04:50
[written in 1997]
Paoly: Hey Dante! What is this nonsense about purgatory [spoken with a grimace] that you Catholics teach? Haven't you read that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor 5:8)?
Dante the Catholic: First of all, you're misreading that verse. Paul is saying only that he would rather be present with God in spirit than here in his body. Secondly, your interpretation wouldn't apply to those who are damned to hell, since they are not "with the Lord." Thirdly, why would you assume that to be in purgatory is tonot be with God?
Paul: Well, I'm impressed. But still, you can't show me a single verse in the Bible which refers to a state in the afterlife other than heaven or hell.
Dante: Really? I hate to contradict you [smiles], but what about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31)? This is the Hebrew Sheol (Greek, Hades) since it includes both good and bad men. Heaven can't have sinners in it (Rev 21:27) and hell wouldn't have saved persons in it.
Paul: Ah, but this is just a parable. You can't construct a doctrine out of a story! You'll have to do better than that.
Dante: I disagree. Jesus wouldn't tell a falsehood about spiritual matters, even within a parable. This would be misleading. Besides, we're told that Christ preached to (apparently damned) "spirits in prison" after His death (1 Pet 3:19-20) and took the righteous dead with Him to heaven (Eph 4:8-10). This indicates a divided Sheolor Hades, with the righteous and the wicked: a third place or state.
Paul: Well . . . alright, you got me on that one. But no one could go to heaven until after Jesus' Resurrection, and then there were only two destinations after death.
Dante: No: Elijah went straight to heaven (2 Ki 2:11), and most Christians believe the same about Enoch (Gen 5:24). So there were two possibilities for the righteous then: Sheol or heaven, just as there are two today: purgatory or heaven, as Jesus strongly hints (Mt 5:25-26, Lk 12:58-59).
Paul: Okay, but what other verse can you come up with?
Dante: Well, Paul accepts prayers for the dead, which presupposes a purgatory, where dead men can still be assisted.
Paul: Come on! Now you're really off the deep end. Where?
Dante: In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul refers to people being "baptized for the dead." And he appears to pray for a dead man, Onesiphorus, in 2 Timothy 1:16-18.
Paul: What do you think he means by "baptisms for the dead?"
Dante: We think he is referring to acts of penance and prayers for the dead. "Baptism" is often a metaphor for suffering (Mk 10:38-39, Lk 3:16, 12:50), and Paul seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind - a very similar verse which explicitly teaches the propriety of prayers for the dead.
Paul: But that's in the Apocrypha. We don't accept that.
Dante: I know, but if Paul is indeed referring to it, that's beside the point, and you still have to interpret Paul somehow. But there's more: Jesus speaks of sins being forgiven in the "world to come" (Mt 12:32), and three levels of judgment (Mt 5:22). These must be references to purgatory. Scripture oftens mentions a "fire" and a purging, cleansing process by which we become holy (Ex 19:18, Is 4:4, 6:7, Mal 3:1-4, 2 Cor 7:1, 1 Thess 4:3,7, 1 Jn 3:2-3, Heb 12:29).
Paul: But why would God want to torment us like that? What's the point? Why wouldn't He just forgive us and be done with it, since Jesus already bore all our penalties (Is 53:4-6)?
Dante: God is holy and perfect as well as loving, and this process is simply the way we must enter into His presence. Besides, it's much more merciful to allow people to be purged of their remaining sins after death as a prelude to heaven, than to condemn them to hell. Whatever the reason, God has revealed purgatory to us in the Bible. Paul talks about the "judgment seat of Christ" (1 Cor 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10), where our works will be "tested," after which some will be saved "only as through fire." In all essentials, this is precisely what Catholics mean by purgatory. Don't you believe in the "judgment seat of Christ," and that holiness is required to see God (Heb 12:14-15,23, Eph 5:5)?
Paul: Well sure, but it takes place quickly at the Judgment.
Dante: Okay, suppose I grant you that. Now we're only arguing about duration, a mere quantitative rather than qualitative dispute. Why quibble over details? We're not far apart.
Paul: Yes, but we don't think that this judgment goes on for thousands of years, with the sufferers losing all hope.
Dante: No one knows how long the process will take for any individual. Paul makes no indication. But all these suffering souls know they are saved and will go to heaven eventually. Purgatory is the vestibule to heaven, not hell. You believe we'll be zapped, and I think it'll take a bit longer. But there is agreement that some purging takes place.
Paul: Wow! I never thought of it in that way. But if the Bible teaches this, I can't disagree with it. Thanks, Dante!
Dante the Catholic: First of all, you're misreading that verse. Paul is saying only that he would rather be present with God in spirit than here in his body. Secondly, your interpretation wouldn't apply to those who are damned to hell, since they are not "with the Lord." Thirdly, why would you assume that to be in purgatory is tonot be with God?
Paul: Well, I'm impressed. But still, you can't show me a single verse in the Bible which refers to a state in the afterlife other than heaven or hell.
Dante: Really? I hate to contradict you [smiles], but what about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31)? This is the Hebrew Sheol (Greek, Hades) since it includes both good and bad men. Heaven can't have sinners in it (Rev 21:27) and hell wouldn't have saved persons in it.
Paul: Ah, but this is just a parable. You can't construct a doctrine out of a story! You'll have to do better than that.
Dante: I disagree. Jesus wouldn't tell a falsehood about spiritual matters, even within a parable. This would be misleading. Besides, we're told that Christ preached to (apparently damned) "spirits in prison" after His death (1 Pet 3:19-20) and took the righteous dead with Him to heaven (Eph 4:8-10). This indicates a divided Sheolor Hades, with the righteous and the wicked: a third place or state.
Paul: Well . . . alright, you got me on that one. But no one could go to heaven until after Jesus' Resurrection, and then there were only two destinations after death.
Dante: No: Elijah went straight to heaven (2 Ki 2:11), and most Christians believe the same about Enoch (Gen 5:24). So there were two possibilities for the righteous then: Sheol or heaven, just as there are two today: purgatory or heaven, as Jesus strongly hints (Mt 5:25-26, Lk 12:58-59).
Paul: Okay, but what other verse can you come up with?
Dante: Well, Paul accepts prayers for the dead, which presupposes a purgatory, where dead men can still be assisted.
Paul: Come on! Now you're really off the deep end. Where?
Dante: In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul refers to people being "baptized for the dead." And he appears to pray for a dead man, Onesiphorus, in 2 Timothy 1:16-18.
Paul: What do you think he means by "baptisms for the dead?"
Dante: We think he is referring to acts of penance and prayers for the dead. "Baptism" is often a metaphor for suffering (Mk 10:38-39, Lk 3:16, 12:50), and Paul seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind - a very similar verse which explicitly teaches the propriety of prayers for the dead.
Paul: But that's in the Apocrypha. We don't accept that.
Dante: I know, but if Paul is indeed referring to it, that's beside the point, and you still have to interpret Paul somehow. But there's more: Jesus speaks of sins being forgiven in the "world to come" (Mt 12:32), and three levels of judgment (Mt 5:22). These must be references to purgatory. Scripture oftens mentions a "fire" and a purging, cleansing process by which we become holy (Ex 19:18, Is 4:4, 6:7, Mal 3:1-4, 2 Cor 7:1, 1 Thess 4:3,7, 1 Jn 3:2-3, Heb 12:29).
Paul: But why would God want to torment us like that? What's the point? Why wouldn't He just forgive us and be done with it, since Jesus already bore all our penalties (Is 53:4-6)?
Dante: God is holy and perfect as well as loving, and this process is simply the way we must enter into His presence. Besides, it's much more merciful to allow people to be purged of their remaining sins after death as a prelude to heaven, than to condemn them to hell. Whatever the reason, God has revealed purgatory to us in the Bible. Paul talks about the "judgment seat of Christ" (1 Cor 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10), where our works will be "tested," after which some will be saved "only as through fire." In all essentials, this is precisely what Catholics mean by purgatory. Don't you believe in the "judgment seat of Christ," and that holiness is required to see God (Heb 12:14-15,23, Eph 5:5)?
Paul: Well sure, but it takes place quickly at the Judgment.
Dante: Okay, suppose I grant you that. Now we're only arguing about duration, a mere quantitative rather than qualitative dispute. Why quibble over details? We're not far apart.
Paul: Yes, but we don't think that this judgment goes on for thousands of years, with the sufferers losing all hope.
Dante: No one knows how long the process will take for any individual. Paul makes no indication. But all these suffering souls know they are saved and will go to heaven eventually. Purgatory is the vestibule to heaven, not hell. You believe we'll be zapped, and I think it'll take a bit longer. But there is agreement that some purging takes place.
Paul: Wow! I never thought of it in that way. But if the Bible teaches this, I can't disagree with it. Thanks, Dante!
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Mompera o?
ikaretsaka | 06 Septambra, 2007 19:11
Sombiny t@ resadresakay sy i Lazadaddy(forum serasera)
Lazadaddy: fa maninona moa ianao no mila "mompera?"
izaho: diniho ity " Raha tianao hafana ny Rano, dia mila vilany ianao, manelanelana ilay Rano sy ny afo"!
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Fanoroam-pejy
Fitadiavana
Kalandrier
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